Thinking about this more. Do we watch because we feel the characters are redeemable? Even though redemption may never come. At times I feel like I am watching the Wizard of Oz--waiting and hoping for Kendall to get his courage, Roman to get a brain, and Shiv to get a heart.
You've really nailed this, especially about Shiv. With her character more than any other I keep wanting at least a peak into who else she is. We get to see Kendall with his PR people, and with Naomi, and with his ex-wife, and even a bit with his kids; but Shiv's world is almost all Tom, and the power dynamics are static in that story. Anyway, thanks for a great analysis.
Yeah generally I feel that Succession is not quite as funny as Veep and not as edgy or articulate as lndustry and that’s because I keep expecting it to function like satire - and have something to say. But they never get there. It’s just an hour of something to watch
Been waiting on errrybody to wake up from this pimply zeitgeist fascination. I have good friends and colleagues on the show. Thrilled to death for them and the work and success they are enjoying. But the show itself. There's sharp and clever writing but in service of...? Meh. I'm not fascinated with fascination.
Ever read "Wanting: The Power of Mimetic Desire" or any René Girard work about actual desire and the mechanics of desire? Now there's something to dig into.
Everybody needs to stop fronting. I know, I know...if people like it, whatever...but really, just look around. We get the art we deserve, or we get the art we settle for, OR we go searching. There's too much talent on board to have this be "it." Gross.
This is great. I always feel with Succession that the moment succession occurs, the game, and the show are up. Hence the perpetual contrivance to keep everything up in the air, introduce jeopardy but never with ultimate consequences for Logan. Just keep the fun and the drama and the dialogue and the situation thrumming over. Keep "resolution" at bay. A bit like sitcom in that respect.
watched the first 2 eps after reading the Strong profile and chatted about it with my dad, who may have identified the fundamental problem with the series: it is 100% clueless w/r/t the main thing it's about: running a corporation. so all these scenes with the business deals are underpinned by nothing, and there are a lot of scenes with business-y machinations, and they are not anchored in reality but the mushy murk of the writers' minds, so the characters' motivations are also based on... a very poor understanding of what it is they're fighting over?? idk might watch more :)
Yes, I think I have the same reservations. I love to watch the show for the palace intrigue, the icy dialogue, and beautiful-if-impersonal set design. But I can't get past how much the show doesn't seem to move forward. Kendall taking on his father was the first season, and also the first half of the third. Not only don't they move forward, but the set-up of the show seems to preclude them from moving forward without betraying the characters. Our world is controlled by these billionaires who, if they were better people, wouldn't be billionaires in the first place. It reads to me like something like Sartre's "No Exit" that way.
The one thing I think it possibly has going for it is that it's only halfway done. I have a feeling that Logan, not Kendall, will die soon. (His dying seemed likely for the first few episodes of season 1, disappeared for a season-plus, then was hinted at again with his UTI flare-up slash delusional episode.) Will this shake things up enough to force the characters to look at themselves? The best part of this last episode was Kendall's summing up his father "monetizing bile" or however he phrased it. Truer, deadlier words never spoken. Kendall, who won't die but is certainly suicidal, might be more interesting and worth following now that he's been totally defeated. (I haven't brought myself to read the piece on J. Strong though!)
"The genre is kind of this: a show that has nothing revelatory or interesting to say about the way we live and feel, whose sole function is mere mimesis."
I disagree completely with this which means that you and I are going to get along wonderfully. Excellent piece here!
Isn't the point that we as the audience feel as "cheated" by the show/Logan as his despicable children do? It is rather like watching a horrible car crash over and over. I agree that Shiv's role now exemplifies the whole Waystar/Royco culture where women are mere objects to be discarded along with Gerri, who at least gets some leverage? IMHO.
I haven’t watched Succession (I think I fell asleep while it was playing) but somehow have now consumed a lot of discourse on it. Maybe what you mention about the absence of *not moralistic* consequences, but narrative ones, provides a clue as to the show’s holding pattern? A lot of popular art sort of tasks itself with delivering a moral message these days (I think), and maybe the creators are sort of frozen at the choice of what if any moralistic consequences to deliver. Just a thought ..
I agree with you. It's as though Succession is curated to eschew arcs in favor of elliptical or circular storytelling. Nothing really happens. Which... does remind me of Hamlet, in the sense maybe the point is that plot and dialogue cannot be judged as good or bad developments but simply the truth. Mining that can be interesting for a few hours, but not for season after season.
Oh man. You got this so right. When the New Yorker Profile >>>> The TV show, with respect to entertainment experience... It's a sign. I guess I'll still be watching tho.
Thank you for helping me frame my response to the Jeremy Strong article. "He seems totally nuts and without an ounce of chill." Yes! "He comes off as a try-hard irritant in the profile." YESSS! It was uncomfortable to read, and I find I dislike Kendall even MORE after reading it.
with this knowledge, would someday love your thoughts on grey’s because i, too, love rewatching the first eight seasons
Thinking about this more. Do we watch because we feel the characters are redeemable? Even though redemption may never come. At times I feel like I am watching the Wizard of Oz--waiting and hoping for Kendall to get his courage, Roman to get a brain, and Shiv to get a heart.
You've really nailed this, especially about Shiv. With her character more than any other I keep wanting at least a peak into who else she is. We get to see Kendall with his PR people, and with Naomi, and with his ex-wife, and even a bit with his kids; but Shiv's world is almost all Tom, and the power dynamics are static in that story. Anyway, thanks for a great analysis.
*peek*
Was struggling to write a few ending scenes in a thing and this piece just told me what to do. Thank you so much!
Yeah generally I feel that Succession is not quite as funny as Veep and not as edgy or articulate as lndustry and that’s because I keep expecting it to function like satire - and have something to say. But they never get there. It’s just an hour of something to watch
Been waiting on errrybody to wake up from this pimply zeitgeist fascination. I have good friends and colleagues on the show. Thrilled to death for them and the work and success they are enjoying. But the show itself. There's sharp and clever writing but in service of...? Meh. I'm not fascinated with fascination.
Ever read "Wanting: The Power of Mimetic Desire" or any René Girard work about actual desire and the mechanics of desire? Now there's something to dig into.
Everybody needs to stop fronting. I know, I know...if people like it, whatever...but really, just look around. We get the art we deserve, or we get the art we settle for, OR we go searching. There's too much talent on board to have this be "it." Gross.
This is great. I always feel with Succession that the moment succession occurs, the game, and the show are up. Hence the perpetual contrivance to keep everything up in the air, introduce jeopardy but never with ultimate consequences for Logan. Just keep the fun and the drama and the dialogue and the situation thrumming over. Keep "resolution" at bay. A bit like sitcom in that respect.
watched the first 2 eps after reading the Strong profile and chatted about it with my dad, who may have identified the fundamental problem with the series: it is 100% clueless w/r/t the main thing it's about: running a corporation. so all these scenes with the business deals are underpinned by nothing, and there are a lot of scenes with business-y machinations, and they are not anchored in reality but the mushy murk of the writers' minds, so the characters' motivations are also based on... a very poor understanding of what it is they're fighting over?? idk might watch more :)
Yes, I think I have the same reservations. I love to watch the show for the palace intrigue, the icy dialogue, and beautiful-if-impersonal set design. But I can't get past how much the show doesn't seem to move forward. Kendall taking on his father was the first season, and also the first half of the third. Not only don't they move forward, but the set-up of the show seems to preclude them from moving forward without betraying the characters. Our world is controlled by these billionaires who, if they were better people, wouldn't be billionaires in the first place. It reads to me like something like Sartre's "No Exit" that way.
The one thing I think it possibly has going for it is that it's only halfway done. I have a feeling that Logan, not Kendall, will die soon. (His dying seemed likely for the first few episodes of season 1, disappeared for a season-plus, then was hinted at again with his UTI flare-up slash delusional episode.) Will this shake things up enough to force the characters to look at themselves? The best part of this last episode was Kendall's summing up his father "monetizing bile" or however he phrased it. Truer, deadlier words never spoken. Kendall, who won't die but is certainly suicidal, might be more interesting and worth following now that he's been totally defeated. (I haven't brought myself to read the piece on J. Strong though!)
"The genre is kind of this: a show that has nothing revelatory or interesting to say about the way we live and feel, whose sole function is mere mimesis."
I disagree completely with this which means that you and I are going to get along wonderfully. Excellent piece here!
Isn't the point that we as the audience feel as "cheated" by the show/Logan as his despicable children do? It is rather like watching a horrible car crash over and over. I agree that Shiv's role now exemplifies the whole Waystar/Royco culture where women are mere objects to be discarded along with Gerri, who at least gets some leverage? IMHO.
I haven’t watched Succession (I think I fell asleep while it was playing) but somehow have now consumed a lot of discourse on it. Maybe what you mention about the absence of *not moralistic* consequences, but narrative ones, provides a clue as to the show’s holding pattern? A lot of popular art sort of tasks itself with delivering a moral message these days (I think), and maybe the creators are sort of frozen at the choice of what if any moralistic consequences to deliver. Just a thought ..
I agree with you. It's as though Succession is curated to eschew arcs in favor of elliptical or circular storytelling. Nothing really happens. Which... does remind me of Hamlet, in the sense maybe the point is that plot and dialogue cannot be judged as good or bad developments but simply the truth. Mining that can be interesting for a few hours, but not for season after season.
Oh man. You got this so right. When the New Yorker Profile >>>> The TV show, with respect to entertainment experience... It's a sign. I guess I'll still be watching tho.
Brilliant. Thanks for this. I can tell I will be thinking about it for a long while. Also - love your writing.
Thank you for helping me frame my response to the Jeremy Strong article. "He seems totally nuts and without an ounce of chill." Yes! "He comes off as a try-hard irritant in the profile." YESSS! It was uncomfortable to read, and I find I dislike Kendall even MORE after reading it.